Call Land Rover direct
0800 038 188
0800 600 555
011-313 2000 and ask for Land Rover customer service

Having just read through your list of "The GOOD and the BAD" which I have printed and will use to discuss service perceptions with my staff.
I would like to just state the following
1. You are quite right, there are always two sides to a story.
A point raised some time ago was how about Three sides to a story, Yours, Mine and the Truth.

2. When receiving e-mails about service and sales experiences, I would
recommend that the driver make reference to the Registration number and ifat all possible, the body number( found in the service manual)  This will
allow concerned parties an opportunity to take corrective action and learn.

3. When was the last time you updated the correspondence? In the case of Rudi's remarks about Lakeview, there have been a lot of changes in
personnel, training, attitude, through put and general conduct since his
experience. When do we draw the line and stop crying over spilt milk?

4. The Call Centre mentioned in your other correspondence is the correct
route to follow when a dispute arises between a customer and a dealer. 

All dealership performance levels are measured by LRSA. Two such measurements are, 1) The number of contacts the call centre receives verses the workshop throughput and 2) The Customer Satisfaction Index scores, which are measured by a outside company.
Clear targets have been set by LRSA and are actioned on a monthly basic
during dealer visits by LRSA Field staff.

Not with standing the move out of the BMW Group and the future developments, it is business as usual at the dealerships', so please feel free to forward any suggestions and problems to me. In my own little way I am sure we can ensure that more of the Good stories get told

Regards and complements on the web-site

Francois Jordaan
e-mail
April 15 2003

Returning home ( Botswana ) from Johannesburg my 2.8 started behaving 'funny' (no power, backfire, Thirsty). The closest dealer from me was Waterford in Santon, with no appointment I parked my Landy in the service bay to go and look for some help. After explaining my problems to the friendly lady at reception she had a word with the service manager and he said they could squeeze me in, when I returned to the Landy to get my service booklet they have already washed it, how is that for first impressions!  After some testing (T4) a faulty cam pickup sensor was pointed out as the culprit. Waterford changed the pickup and the same problem popped up again, they had a EX-Bmw  man there that said it seems like the ECM but is was 5:30 in the afternoon and they had no stock, I told them that I will get it sorted out in Potch. the next day since I was going to stay over there for the night. I got really professional service from Waterford and will take my landy back anytime! J

The next morning I was @ Daly 8:00 in the morning to see if they can give me a hand, after I explained my problem to the lady @ service reception she told me that they can only help me the next Thursday (6 day later!) I explained again that I had to be in Botswana no later than the next morning but to no avail. I went looking for the Workshop manager (William Francis or something) I to my story again and to my shock he told me he can't help me and turned around and walked away. LL !!  I ended up calling the local LR dealer in Francis town (Mike Redden), he told me he will make a few calls and call me back.

5 min later I got a call from Mike and he informed me he had just talked to Neil from 4way Land rover and he will 'make a plan'.

Off to Vereeniging I went still discussed with Daly LR for really shitty service. I met Neil and gave him the rundown of what have been happening with the Landy and he told me he will make a plan to get me back home. The Dealer Principal told me that they R real busy and that they will give it a go the first moment they have spare.

Much to my surprise the problem was sorted out by the time I came back to see if they have started yet!!!. If this was the standard for LR dealers everyone would have been driving LR

Thanks to Neil and he's guys for helping a guy in need (I know where my Land rover will be serviced for the rest of its long live!)

My Freelander visited above (Southern Land Rover) a number of times for services and small repairs
and the service has always been very professional.

1. I was worried about some cross-axle wheel spin taking place with no
visible effect from ETC. Southern ran diagnostics on the system, showed me a
copy of the print-out and even went with me to some ditches near Wemmerpan
to demonstrate the functioning of the system - all at no charge.
2. Some 12000km after my 80000km service during which the front brake pads
were replaced, one of the two bolts holding the left front  callipers came
loose and fell out on dirt roads in the Griekwastad area. Back in
civilisation I heard a knocking noise and found the problem. Phoned Southern
the next day and was able to have the car fixed immediately free of charge
while waiting at the workshop.
3. Damaged my left outside mirror - please dont ask how!  Southern asked to
me to purchase the spare and fitted it free of charge while I waited at the
workshop.

Just had to share this with you

I have read through all your comments about the good and the
bad. I own my second Disco and the Series II must be one of
the best 4x4's ever built. I really have nothing bad to say
about LRSA, except that Dealerships are like Banks. You
really don't get a good bank or a bad one. It is all about
the bank manager and his staff. This can be compared directly
to LR. It is all about the dealerships, with the DP being the
captain in charge.

I can give you a bit of history about myself. I was a die hard
BMW owner and have had more than 7 different BM's in the last 10
years. In between the BM's I traded my 530i in on a Disco
Series one. Had a lot of crap with it(not serviced with LR)
and eventually traded it in on a 98 M3 4door. The car was
immaculate, and by the time I reached 80000Km, BM had
replaced the gearbox 3 times, and the engine once, and I sold
it after the back suspension collapsed and swore never to own
another BM in my life. I had all the same dealings with BM
dealerships as you guys have explained with LR.

My dealings with Southern Land Rover over the last two years
has been one of utmost professionalism, and I can only thank
Jaco, Mike, and Martin for their continued support of my LR
Experience. I book my car in for services at Hyde Park, and
they deliver my car at Hyde Park again. Although the car gets
serviced in town, I do not need to go into town for a service.

I have read the article about the Worst 4x4 where the author
takes a shot at Southern LR, which they(Southern) are fully aware off,
and  when I asked them about the incident it became
completely apparent that the article was only the one side of
the coin. I would have like to see them answer the letter and
explain their side, but they seem little worried about it.
To be perfectly honest, they give the best service around,
and are efficient. The service cost are more than reasonable,
and the warranty claims were handled and approved on the same day.
(My experience anyway)

I must also admit that I am one of the worst customers to
deal with, but the experience with Southern is commendable
and I can with the utmost confidence suggest them as a sales
and service dealership.

For the rest of you, who are coming to terms with the niggly
problems of Land Rover,(that is part of the experience, get
used to it, or get a bicycle), because you will have the same
sh!t at other car makers, but they are not this transparent
and published, about their problems, and not as close to
their customers as Land Rover SA(with all their faults).

I was recently on a trip in the Chobe Game Reserve in Botswana when, a few
km short of Savuti the dreaded red oil pressure warning light on the
dashboard came on.

Luckily I was in possession of a satellite phone (for other reasons than to
contact LR in Jhb!) and managed to call LR who put me on to LR in Maun
(Lesedi Motors, Rod Bateman). Rod could not have been more helpful. He sent
out a tow truck and a Toyota Land Cruiser (he apologised for that but it was
all he had in his second hand stock!) to get the family back in comfort.

The whole episode took 2½ days and involved much anxiety, swearing, sweat
(we even had to winch the tow truck out of the sand on one occasion) and
fun.

The culprit was a bolt coming out of the oil pump shaft in the sump. This
released the cog, driven by a chain from the crankshaft, from the pump
rendering the pump dead.

Lesedi replaced the whole oil pump assembly (the bolt had had all its
threads chewed, so what the threads on the inside of the shaft looked like I
can't imagine) with a second hand one. Everything was done with such an air
of concern and help that I can't thank them enough.

The incident ruined our holiday as we were unable to continue to the booked
(and paid for) camp sites and I would be interested to know if any other
reader has had any similar experience.

Sandton Land Rover replaced the second hand pump assembly on return.

All the Land Rover spares, labour and towing costs at Land Rover's expense.
Thank goodness! The satellite phone bill was in excess of R1 000!! But at
least we are back!

Gillian Wood
e-mail
11 May 2000

I have a 1996 Tdi Defender 90, and it recently blew a cylinder head gasket whilst I was on my way to George.    I had it towed to the LR dealer in George to get the repair done.  When I went to collect it the following week, I immediately noticed an above average engine noise with a very loud knock.  I immediately complained to the service manager as well as to one of the mechanics who both said the engine was 100% and cleared that it was fine to go to Cape Town.

The good....

Upon my arrival I took it straight to Donfords LR in Stellenbosch, where they immediately on start up said the engine was too noisy!!  The long and short of it was that cylinder 4 was badly damaged and extensive repairs would be necessary.  At this stage I involved LRSA merely to attempt to get a refund on the account I had paid in George as I felt their repair achieved nothing.  LRSA after hearing the whole saga offered to replace the sub assembly and pay for 80% parts( approx. R28000!).    I found both LRSA and Donfords to be very supportive, and the actual work carried out by Donfords was flawless.  Thanks to Ferdi from Donfords, and Deon from LRSA.

Follow up:
I still have no idea
why the gasket went, as the George dealership could not tell me.  I have
heard since that there is a problem with the 300Tdi engines with the gasket
from the water pump to the head that somehow due to vibrations comes a
becomes a little loose, and the landy would start loosing a little water
each month through this gasket, and then it would all of a sudden just go.
Danie from Somerset Overlander told me this, and in fact showed me a
Discovery that he had in with a blown head gasket and pointed out the water
stains on the engine block water had been leaking through.  So maybe it is
something people should check?  The LR had 72000kms on the clock at the
time!

My office is situated directly adjacent Southern Landrover in JHB CBD. They have always given me excellent service and advice. My only concern is the price of the spares and their labour cost. My procedure nowadays is as follows : A) Book in vehicle at Southern Landrover and obtain detailed list and costs of things to do. B) Go to Dover parts and obtain spares at sometimes 50% of the cost C) Book in vehicle at Trans Quatro (Greg Wheately) and get the job done at a acceptable cost.      Maybe a bit unfair to Southern, but ............

Stuart Carliell
ZA-LRO

For a change I have some good news regarding dealerships.

After my experiences last week with the broken rocker cover and the thoughts of the list members that it could have been the cambelt that failed (based on my original description of the symptoms) I decided to check the cambelt through the wading plug hole. Boy did I get a fright, +- 5mm had been worn off the side and there was a lot of rubber inside the cover plate. This lelft me with the Dilemma (sp?) of where to take the vehicle (you will
remember my experiences with Forsdicks last week), I followed the
recommendations of David & Peter and took it to Southern Land Rover, what a pleasure.
I was able to get the Landy in for a service within 2 days of phoning unlike most other BMW/Land Rover dealership where you have to book well in advance. They only did the work I asked them to do and didn't charge me for anything extra, they also phone me that I would require Kit 2 etc for the cambelt.The service advisor (Jan Nienaber) was very efficient and helpful. In summary whenever I need to use a Landrover agent I will definitely go to Southern, it is a bit of a hassle to get the vehicle into town but that is more than made up for by the service received.

Regarding the saga with Forsdicks Westgate from last week, after such poor service I sent a rather strong letter to LRSA and at the time was quite impressed as they phoned me the some day to say they will investigate the matter and come back to me early this week, unfortunately I haven't heard anything yet and the person involved did not return my phone call yesterday. It looks a bit like LRSA have the some attitude to customer service as most of their dealerships do

David Farrow
ZA-LRO

Basically my thoughts as well. Once the vehicle is out of Warranty it will
be serviced by myself and for any serious work, by a reliable back street
mechanic, assuming I can find such a beast here in JHB.

Geurt Bloem
ZA-LRO

I bought my 110 from Daly Land Rover and had very good experience with them. At the time of purchase, I traded a MB$nz for the Landy and Daly delivered it on my doorstep in Pta. The vehicle was excellently serviced and I was given a full training on how everything worked. I've had some small niggles, but they did listen and was prepared to acknowledge their error.

I will definitely buy another 110 (obviously I'll spes a 110 with a 300 TDi
engine and not the TD5) and it will be with Daly. These guys need support for the type of service they are prepared to give and further they are prepared to haggle over a price which makes a good deal even better.

Rudi Botha
ZA-LRO

I would like to share some really excellent experiences I've had with a LR
dealer.

You guys may remember my ordeal with the local Pta dealer where I bought my Landy. I've had my '97 Tdi Shorty in for 4 engine replacements during the 80,000km that I've had it. Endless sh$t and no support or sympathy from the dealer. When I had another breakdown in Potchefstroom I've had enough. This was on a public holiday and I had my elderly parents with me in the car. One phone call to LR Emergency had the local dealer Theo Daly from Daly Land Rover in Potch contacting me with-in 10 minutes. They took my car in, Theo gave me his own car ('98 Discovery)to continue the journey. He told me I could probably have my Landy back that evening. The problem was bigger than what they thought and the car was not fixed yet. No problem, Theo offered me
the Disco to keep till my car was fixed. Remember this all happened on a
PUBLIC HOLIDAY!!

My car was fixed in 4 days and Theo contacted me to make arrangements for the delivery of my car to Pretoria! They brought me my car and handed it over with a FULL tank of petrol. I was very impressed with the service. Needless to say I bought my new Discovery from Daly's in Potch. Subsequently I've had all the services done in Potch. Each time they gave me a car to use during the services. The last service (40,000km)I could not return the car to them due to business. AGAIN no problem, Mr Botha, we will deliver your car in Pta the next day and collect our car. All this at NO additional cost!!!! If that is not real service.... Pretoria have a LOT to learn.

Fanie du Plessis
ZA-LRO

I bought my Discovery from Sandton LR secondhand with 124 000 km's on the clock. I test drove it and it had a minor miss which they promised to fix
and did not when I took delivery. They took the vehicle in for a week to
look after the miss as well as a long list of other faults I only noticed
after delivery. They gave me a replacement Discovery to use and all the
faults were corrected to my satisfaction.

About two weeks later the Discovery started stalling at stop streets while
idling. I took the vehicle back and they diagnosed a defective airflow
sensor. A replacement is priced at R6000 but they offered  to get it fixed
for free under a LR secondhand

3 times in two years I took my vehicle in to replace the brake pads,etc and everytime I received a call from the service advisor telling me they have to replace a component as it was damaged by the previous owner/ mechanic..the costs of this running into thousands.

I found this very suspicious the third time so I booked the car in at landrover Durban only to be told nothing was wrong. Just to satisfy my curiosity, I took the vehicle to Landrover Umhlanga only to be given a list of things that needed to be replaced...

I have since replaced the service agents..my vehicle only goes into the Durban branch. the staff are kind, courteous and very helpful and NOT RIP-OFFS.

Jan Grobler
e-mail
November 2002

The Best 4 X 4 X Far with the Worst Service X Far!

Why is it that the best vehicle by far guarantees the worst service by far?

Yes this is another letter complaining about Land Rover service in South Africa.  I am sure that everyone has had enough of hearing about the bad service that Land Rover owners in South Africa have to endure - you should feel what it’s likes to own one!

Question then is why on earth do you then buy a Land Rover?  The deal is that it still is one of the best multi-purpose vehicles around.  The history of the Defender tells me that if I buy one and I look after it, I will retire long before it and my children will still be able to go and explore whatever is left of the wild in it when they retire.

That’s if Land Rover’s service network did not do irreparable damage to the vehicle before it is out of warranty.  My vehicle has had to go back to the service centre after each of the last 3 services (40 000, 50 000 and 60 000km services)!  And these were not small problems, for instance after the 60 000km service the tensioner pulley was mounted out of alignment and it damaged the bearing and fan belt.  Note that the service personnel were supplied with a list of outstanding warrantee issues that had to be fixed during each of these services.  (The list started off with 12 items).  The only thing that happened with the list was that the list of excuses grew faster than the list of problems – currently 38 items!

I have also complained about the problem with ‘un-balanced’ front tyres since the 40 000km service.  It was temporarily fixed by swapping the back tyres to the front, and when I took the service centre to task just before the 70 000km service I had to drive around in order for Michelin and Tiger Wheel & Tyre people to help me prove that the cause is a problem with the Land Rover chassis, bushes and steering!  We are now six months down the line and the problem is still not resolved with Land Rover SA and the service centre in question, blaming each other and I am having to foot the bill for their inability to resolve their non-willingness to provide service.

I always wondered why there was more non-Land Rover affiliated guys servicing Land Rovers than there are Land Rover service centres, now I know!  The only reason Land Rover even know of the existence of my vehicle, is so that they can sort out all the problems they caused!

My warranty runs out in December 2002, and that will be last Land Rover will see of my Defender.

Land Rover should take serious cognisance of the fact that the one or two dealerships that are more or less trying to get their act together are so inundated with vehicles to service, that they are not able to fix the problems!

Then there is the problem of waiting for parts.  My Defender has spent more than 5 weeks this year (2002) in Land Rover service centres waiting for ‘critical’ parts from Land Rover leaving me stranded without transport.  It seems to be Land Rover’s policy that their clients should pay for Land Rover’s inabilities!

Also the fact that if you own a Defender, you seem to be treated like a farmer, while the Discovery owners seem to get better service, yet the Defenders cost R300 000, not cheap by anyone's standards, except maybe if you work for Land Rover South Africa.  I can only think that this attitude from Land Rover is by far the best advertisement Toyota could ask for!

Enough about the Defender, there are as many complaints about the service we are getting from Land Rover on our Freelander!  Service center personnel think and treat my wife as if she is stupid.  They promise service when I am with her and think that because she is a woman, that they do not have to deliver on it.  Then they think that we (my wife and I) do not talk to each other when she takes them to task!

The idea of this letter was to be a short introduction into our problem, so I started with the simple, straight forward problem, in other word I will not even begin to complain about the problems we experienced with both our Freelanders over the last four years!  Enough to say that the first Freelander we sold prior to the expiry of its warranty with LandRover having spent over R50 000 on warranty work and my wife also having spent weeks at a time without the use of her beloved vehicle.  The new Freelander has gone well – if you don’t take into account that LR OnCall has been summoned three times to fix the same problem. (And did you know that if the battery goes flat the only way to get into the vehicle is either to break a window or remove bolts holding the bonnet lock? A wonderful design flaw, the super-lock mode).  Let’s face it, this is one very complicated vehicle that not even its creators can figure out!  It is impossible for Land Rover to fix this vehicle and my opinion is that they should sell the vehicle to Mercedes Benz or some other organization who might have the ability to work out how it should work.

Simple things that make my blood boil every time is that service personnel at Land Rover have absolutely no respect or decency (or inclination of these) for their customer’s possessions, time and money.  To ask them to give you a call and let you know what is going on is absolutely futile!  My viewpoint is that they just don’t care, and it’s not as if they haven’t been told either!  I personally think that the after sales service problem Land Rover South Africa is experiencing is beyond fixing!

We are trying our very best to get it through to them that they have a problem, but their attitude is one of ‘if you do not like getting no service, go tell someone else because we think we are doing fine.  Look at these service ratings and indexes we are achieving’ – sometimes I wonder about people measuring themselves against others.  Aren’t the quoted indexes and ratings done by research companies, paid by Land Rover!?  Land Rover are the only ones quoting them!

Land Rover in South Africa also has this predicament in that their products are selling, so why should they care about after sales?  I still maintain that the best 4X4 vehicle would be a Land Rover, build by Toyota and serviced by Mercedes Benz!

This letter is just me airing my frustrations. I would however like to dare Ford and Land Rover (seeing BMW could only manage to make the Land Rover problems worse!) to at least try to fix problems for all their current and future clients.

Eddie Calvert
e-mail
26 February 2000

Dear Landrover Owners,

I would like to bring to the attention of all current and future Landrover
owners, especially those who have recently bought new vehicles.  Expect to
wait weeks for a claim to be authorized. Well that's not fair someone lower
down on the food chain did exceed expectations Philip Mhalia ( I hope I have
the surname right).    More importantly just do not expect service delivery.
It is how business is conducted at the present moment by Landrover SA.  Not
even from the managing director Moira Moses or any of her direct/indirect
reports and or associates to name, but a few. Mike Dawson, Richard Duncan
from the U.K Landrover Division has bothered to return any of my calls.
They are just not accessible to us the consumer. What is even sadder is
promises are made by the personal assistant Rose Franci (who is not too
blame) that Moira or Mike would no doubt return my call, but to date nothing
(since the 09th February 2001) has happened.  The message is very clear "We
do not care" and spells out typical business arrogance.

With the transformation process from BMW to Ford, Landrover owners must
expect to live with the pain, that is just how they conduct their business.
In fact for the record I am a Landrover owner and my seventh to date since
1995.  The way forward just gives me a feeling of doom and gloom.  Like
stocks/shares I had better dump the investment and cut my losses.   It seems
that Moira and her teams are just too busy with transformation issues than
to worry about the day to day issues affecting their existing client base.
The most important entity in the business cycle should be her customers.

However,  that's not the message I am getting anyway and especially with my
recent experience to date. Service delivery can no longer be judged on what
you say you are going to do Moira, but what you actually do.  So Moira all
the promises that I have seen and read about to date have to be seen to be
believed.

Even the dealership relationships appear to be souring drastically as was
experienced with my recent dealings with Forsdicks Landrover,  Cape Town who
have just abdicated their responsibility to take full ownership of warranty
claims.  Instead, the issues are passed on to the client to resolve with
Landrover.   I suppose there is no incentive for Forsdicks  BMW to support
Landrover.

The background to the above mentioned statements relates to a very recent
(and there has been past experiences) around warranty claims which can take
anything up to three weeks to get authorization.   Apparently, with the
switchover from BMW to Ford. All business process has fallen by the way side
acknowledged by Landrover and dealer representatives. Authorization by
Gerhard Beukes has been revoked with the change.  Sam Cochide,  the boy on
the block just cannot get to process the claims by the close of each day.
Equally, important no one and I mean no one will take full ownership.i.e
dealer and Landrover.

The message is very clear for now anyway - if you need a warranty to replace
or repair your vehicle you had better plan a longer holiday.  At least
consider extending you trip by three weeks and be prepared to wait.  Whether
I intend to keep and buy and another Landrover remains questionable?  The
loyal sucker I am.

This definitely deserves a lemon - I await comment from Landrover and
especially the views of other existing owners. You have there email
addresses. Let's see if we get a response.

Sats Oosthuizen
e-mail
26 March 2000

I have had so much hassle with my new TD5 it is ridiculous.

1st problem on 264 km's(yes 264!!!) Car broke down. It just started losing
power and then stopped not to start again. Had to be taken to a dealer. Got
the car back after three days. Faulty injector? On 1st service(1500 KM's)
the ECU was replaced. Exhaust bracket broke!!!

2nd problem on 3000Km's Paint on the bonnet and the left rear fender was
pealing. Now LR is happy to pay for it, but I have to be without my car for
1 week!

3rd Problem on 5000Km's. Rear torsion bar bush missing.

4th problem on 10 000Km's just after service water leak on water pump.

And to top it all off not even a call from them to say they are very sorry
for messing me around and wasting my time.

Pierre Douglas
ZA-LRO

Just a comment, a friend of mine bought a 2.8 LR last year Feb. Had it
serviced by agents as it still has a three year warranty. They would
pick the vehicle up and deliver at his work place. He has been having
endless problems with the gearbox and two weeks ago they promised they
will rebuild the box completely. It got delivered back to him and was
leaking gear oil by the buckets. He phoned them again, they send a
driver and drove the car WITHOUT gear oil back to the agents. He got
it back and we had a look at the gearbox. It was full of silicone on
the outside, and when we drove it around the block it had the most
terrible noise in the box. He has complained numerous times to no
avail. The one person at the agents said he must write a letter to
LR-SA if he is unhappy, cause as far as they're concerned everythings
OK! Well he is loosing about R30k on a trade-in for an Isuzu 3.
petrol. (He needs a lot of power to tow) I support his decision
ENTIRELY as there is NO WAY I'll buy a new LR while the attitude of
the staff and thereby LR agents is so irresponsible, don't give a
sh*t, and who the hell are you anyway.

Give me an old series that I can service and maintain personally
anyday!

Mike
ZA-LRO

As you may have guessed I have discussed these types of issues with LRSA at the highest level. I have been made a promise by LRSA that any issues we need resolved that have been taken up with the Dealerships first, but not resolved to our satisfaction, must be logged with the LR Call Centre. All calls logged in this way are managed and do not drop through the cracks! I believe that each call is recorded on a system, and given a Call Reference number. The call is then directed to the relevant dealer and is followed up regularly by LRSA. They feel that people complaining, that have not followed this route, cannot be guaranteed service by LRSA as they may not know about the problem, or the wrong people may be assigned to the problem.

The number is 0800 038 188.

I have not tried this route yet, but maybe it's worth a try! I dare someone
to try it and report back.

Stuart Carliell
ZA-LRO

Unfortunately I have got nothing good to say at this stage
about LRSA helpline, I took up the issues I had from when my rocker
shaft broke a few weeks back. At first I was impressed, they phoned me the day I sent the fax and promised to investigate, however since then they have been silent and when I phone them they often don't return your calls. It is becoming more and more obvious that they don't give a
damn and I wouldn't recommend that anyone buys a new Landy or for that matter BMW.

A final note to that saga was after a couple of months of phonecalls (mostly
unreturned), I finally did get some action in that the dealership concerned
was given a "blackmark".  Overall though I was not very impressed by LRSA
attitude towards customer service and have decided not to use them whenever possible.